I actually found a non-gambling Neteller merchant...

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Well, sort of.....I've been on a Quixotic quest over the past few days to find such a thing. After considerable searching I come across:

http://www.paybycash.com/

At first glance the website--which promises "alternate payment processing" looks like someone like Click2Pay or similar service to facilitate gambling transactions. Yet this company serves the online videogame industry much like Neteller--players transfer cash by a variety of methods to this company and then use it to pay for online gaming like "Dungeons and Dragons Online" and "Everquest".

It's not exactly a retail establishment or anything, but its the closest thing I've found to an actual non-gambling Neteller merchant...
 

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WOW I did not think any exsisted...amazing that there is one !
 

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Dante said:
WOW I did not think any exsisted...amazing that there is one !

It also gave me a brilliant idea for using PayByCash to work around Neteller's "no 'mericans" policy. The sportsbooks would have to adapt slightly to make it work....it would go like this:

Jim's bankroll >> Neteller >> PayBy Cash >> Dungeons and Dragons Online >> Graymore the Elf Lord and Pinnacle Agent >> Pinnacle Sports

Simple isn't it? Plus, I could use my Pinny winnings to buy a really bitchin' broadsword!
 

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da1prophet said:
Simple isn't it? Plus, I could use my Pinny winnings to buy a really bitchin' broadsword!


:suomi: Amen to that or you could buy a Two-handed battle axe
 

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Santo said:
In a way you already can.. there are casino's in "Second Life". I'm not sure if anyone's set up a sportsbook yet, but could be a good business oppertunity.

There's one sportsbook in Second Life--a friend of mine is a big SL fan and showed me the book. She even let me put a few Linden down on a game. I'd love to see more/better books in-game since as you state it is (for now at least) a perfect workaround.

For those of you not familar with Second Life, it has an in-game currency system with a real world value. There are actually currency exchanges that let you buy in game money (called Linden Dollars, usually abbreviated L$) with real money (US$ for example) as well as converting your in-game L$ for real world money. Second Life is replete with casinos that let you bet "in-game", including the aforementioned sportsbook.
 

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:lolBIG:, I noticed on another site (2+2 maybe) there is another "merchant" that takes neteller......

They sell gambling related books and software. e.g., poker strategies, etc.

:ohno:

All you stuck with Netelley balances can always buy yourself a gambling library!

:hump:
 

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Santo said:
In a way you already can.. there are casino's in "Second Life". I'm not sure if anyone's set up a sportsbook yet, but could be a good business oppertunity.

Edit: There is, or was. http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2005/02/its_not_illegal.html#more-674

The whole Second Life economy fascinates the hell out of me as does the implications of the real world/game world legal implications. Someone runs a book in Second Life--should it be subject to US laws? If it is, why isn't other in-game activities like gambling, porn, prostitution, et. al? And if you're going to go that route, why not make killing Orcs in D&D Online illegal? Maybe you could say that its the money transfer element that would be of dubious legality, but how can the government ban money transfers to a "country" that doesn't really exist?
 

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Indeed, it is a fascinating subject (VW in general are the subject of my masters).

Perhaps we'll see a -109, then -108 etc pop up soon :p

If the servers were located in London, rather than California, I might be tempted to try it.
 

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I can envision someone now coming up with a flowchart a mile long on how to get funds to Pinnacle.
 

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Santo said:
Indeed, it is a fascinating subject (VW in general are the subject of my masters).

Perhaps we'll see a -109, then -108 etc pop up soon :p

If the servers were located in London, rather than California, I might be tempted to try it.

Isn't that what Linden is trying to do by making their software open source? Encouraging people to set up their own SL servers?
 

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Partially, the problem is that (as far as I'm aware), people would have to specifically connect to an unusual server, so you're stuck starting from scratch. The appeal of competing in the SL environment is you already have a large (and expanding) customer base.
 

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Santo said:
Partially, the problem is that (as far as I'm aware), people would have to specifically connect to an unusual server, so you're stuck starting from scratch. The appeal of competing in the SL environment is you already have a large (and expanding) customer base.

That's true...it would be cool if there was some sort of interoperatability between the "offical" Linden servers and other servers. My understanding of the current SL configuration is that its essentially a bunch of different servers cobbled together so maybe this would be possible.....
 

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PurdueKev said:
I can envision someone now coming up with a flowchart a mile long on how to get funds to Pinnacle.


Foreign Bank -----> Pinnacle

:realtongu
 

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Government is already shoeing in on taxing virtual currencies in games like W of W.
 

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da1prophet said:
Jim's bankroll >> Neteller >> PayBy Cash >> Dungeons and Dragons Online >> Graymore the Elf Lord and Pinnacle Agent >> Pinnacle Sports

(Inside voice, Jim. Inside voice....) :>Grin>
 

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IRS taxation of game assets inevitable


Experts say it's just a matter of time until the feds get a slice of the real money being made in MMOGs.
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By Daniel Terdiman, News.com Posted Dec 4, 2006 11:39 am PT

NEW YORK--If you are a hardcore player of virtual worlds like World of Warcraft, Second Life, or EverQuest II, IRS form 1099 may soon take on a new meaning for you.
That's because game publishers may well in the not-too-distant future have to send the forms--which individuals receive when earning nonemployee income from companies or institutions--to virtual-world players engaging in transactions for valuable items like Ultima Online castles, EverQuest weapons, or Second Life currency, even when those players don't convert the assets into cash.
Most governments are only beginning to become aware of the substantial economic activity in online games, but the games' rapid growth and the substantial value of the many virtual assets changing hands in them is almost certain to bring them into the popular consciousness.
"Given growth rates of 10 to 15 percent a month, the question is when, not if, Congress and IRS start paying attention to these issues," said Dan Miller, a senior economist with the Congress' Joint Economic Committee, who is also a fan of virtual worlds. "So it is incumbent on us to set the terms and the debate so we have a shaped tax policy toward virtual worlds and virtual economies in a favorable way."
Miller's comments came during a Saturday panel called "Tax and Finance" at the State of Play/Terra Nova symposium, the fourth annual gathering at New York Law School of academics, lawyers, and other scholars to talk about the legal, social, and economic issues surrounding virtual worlds.
The panel was formed in the context of recent questions--first raised by author Julian Dibbel in his book Play Money and in an article he wrote earlier in Legal Affairs magazine--about whether the transfer of virtual assets, or players' acquisition of virtual loot by, for example, killing monsters, creates taxable events.
"If you haven't misspent hours battling an Arctic Ogre Lord near an Ice Dungeon or been equally profligate spending time reading the published works of the Internal Revenue Service," Dibbell's article began, "you probably haven't wondered whether the United States government will someday tax your virtual winnings from games played over the Internet. The real question is: Why hasn't it happened already?"
And while Miller's committee began examining these issues in October, his comments Saturday suggested there could be wider future congressional oversight and a revised IRS tax policy. That's in spite of the fact that Miller said his committee, and Congress in general, is not out to gouge virtual-world players.
"The Joint Economic Committee is not seeking to impose a new tax on virtual economies," Miller said. "We have a very clear record of supporting lower taxes in free market." Meanwhile, Miller's fellow panelists also weighed in Saturday on Dibbel's question, and came at it from several different perspectives.
First up was William LaPiana, a wills, trusts, and estates professor at New York Law School. He approached the question by examining whether estate taxes would accrue on the transfer to an heir of a sizable collection of valuable virtual assets.
LaPiana said that there is little question that the transfer of such assets could be taxable, since it is property. However, he did say that the taxes would accrue only if the total value of the estate's assets, at the time of death, exceeded the limit set by the state in which the deceased had lived. In most cases, he said, that amount is $2 million, though some states, like New York and New Jersey, have lower limits.
There are not that many instances in which someone has that level of virtual assets, although the recent reports that Second Life land mogul Anshe Chung had amassed $1 million in virtual land and other holdings certainly suggest her heirs might have some interesting inheritance tax issues when she dies.
More problematic, LaPiana said, would be laws that require estate administrators to take on responsibility for the proper transfer of assets to beneficiaries. Because most virtual assets are locked behind password-protected accounts, it would be incumbent on the administrator to try to figure out how to get access to those accounts.
"Whoever is going to run your estate...has an absolute obligation to collect all your property and make sure that it goes to the (proper) people," LaPiana said. "How do I make sure my trustee has access to this stuff after I die? These are all problems we're going to have to face."
Next up, Texas Tech University School of Law tax professor Bryan Camp addressed Dibbel's question with a warning. "Be careful what you ask for," Camp said, "because tax is always behind the corner. Tax is the shadow life [to many issues]."
Camp said that that section 61 of the US tax code, a 1913 provision, stated clearly that all income, "from whatever source derived," is taxable. Thus, the question of whether the transfer of virtual assets is taxable boils down to determining if there is a profit afterward.
As an example, he explained that if two people were to exchange copies of books, one of which is worth $30 and the other worth $24, the person ending up with the more expensive volume would have acquired $6 of taxable income.
Another example, he said, was Kyle MacDonald's much-publicized quest to trade up from a red paper clip to a house, which was ultimately successful.
"He has massive tax issues," said Camp of MacDonald. "He started with [the value of] a paper clip and ended up with [the value of] a house." MacDonald is Canadian, though, which puts him under Canadian tax law, which Camp did not address. His point is well taken, though: In determining tax liability--regardless of whether the IRS would likely try to collect--it is necessary to figure out how much profit has derived from a transaction.
However, Camp also said he is working on a legal journal article in which he will argue that at least some profits from transfers of virtual goods are not taxable.
For his part, Miller--who spoke last on the panel--said the Joint Economic Committee is expected to produce a report early next year that will address three goals.
First, he said, the report will address the areas, such as tax, cybercrime, and education, where virtual worlds connect with public policy and will therefore educate the committee's staff members about such issues. Next, the report will seek to identify future uses of virtual worlds, including those by commercial, nonprofit, and governmental bodies. And lastly, the report will specifically investigate the tax issues raised by virtual worlds. "We will look at factual technical questions," Miller said, "like what is a taxable event in a virtual world."
And that's where the answer to Dibbel's question is likely to come into clear focus, he suggested. "The key takeaway for the people" at State of Play, Miller said, "is that congressional and IRS interest in this issue is simply a matter of time."
 

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The day the IRS taxes earnings in make believe online games is the day I will have seen it all.

Sure if you convert to cash, they can tax it, but the idea of taxing you for playing a game where you make some fake currency is ridiculous.

Sadly, I will probably have seen it all soon!

Sean
 

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sean1 said:
The day the IRS taxes earnings in make believe online games is the day I will have seen it all.

Sure if you convert to cash, they can tax it, but the idea of taxing you for playing a game where you make some fake currency is ridiculous.

Sadly, I will probably have seen it all soon!

Sean

Though I hope that the day doesn't come when the government starts taxing online game earnings some people are making some significant real world money in Second Life. There's a woman named Anse Chung, who's essentially a SL version of Donald Trump and she claims to have made $1 million *real* dollars last year from her online business activities:

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/11/second_lifes_fi.html
 

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